My Journey as an Engineer | Episode 3 of We Belong Here Podcast
I met Lauren Lee at RubyConf 2017 in New Orleans and I’ve been so impressed with her ever since. She’s started a podcast called “We Belong Here”. She’s detailing stories of unconventional journeys in tech.
Lauren and I sat down and talked about my journey in tech—how I went from creating Wordpress sites for schools to leading an engineering team at a national education organization. Take a listen here!
Transcript
Lauren (00:05):
Welcome to: “We Belong Here”, lessons from Unconventional Paths to Tech. I’m your host, Lauren Lee. And who am I? I was your wacky 10th grade English teacher who would occasionally rap a Shakespearean, soliloquy, would always encourage a live performance of a book report and would occasionally dress up in costume as Professor Dumbledore to host an ethics debate, who then after nearly a decade, decided to take the massive leap of faith to attend a coding bootcamp, switch careers, and dive deep into the tech industry.
I’ve been surprised by how many of the skills and lessons I learned as an educator have translated to my role in tech. So that got me thinking. Have you taken a non-traditional route to tech or are you interested in transitioning yourself? This is a podcast that aims to interview career changers and folks who are diversifying tech. We’ll hear stories from people who’ve taken unique paths and chat about the skills that they’ve transferred to their roles. Today we’re hoping to create a space for people to learn from one another, develop confidence and debunk the antiquated notion that a computer science degree is required to succeed in tech. Come on everyone. Let’s dive in.
My guest today has a passion for blending technology with education. She’s the Director of Systems Architecture for the National Association of Independent Schools after being the Director of Engineering and Tech for California Association of Independent Schools. But before she attended General Assembly in 2016 to learn JavaScript, she was making the website for a charter school in Washington DC as the administrative coordinator. She has a passion for Ruby, Elixir and Rails and is the founder of the Ruby in Hollywood meetup. She and I met when she took me under her wing when I was an absolute newbie at a tech conference, and I’ve been so impressed with her ever since. She’s a big deal in the independent school industry. Her name is Stephanie Wilkinson, and I feel so humbled to be speaking to her today. Thank you so much for being a guest, Stephanie.
Stephanie (02:10):
Thank you, Lauren. I’m so excited to be here.
Lauren (02:13):
I’m really excited to be talking with you today. Let’s start at the beginning, shall we?
Stephanie (02:17):
Sounds good.
Lauren (02:18):
Can you tell me more about the experiences that you had before you became an engineer?
Stephanie (02:24):
Absolutely. When I was in high school, I was really interested in Linux. I remember my brother brought home a book called The Idiot’s Guide to Red Hat. And so I started poking around a little bit, thinking about how to design an operating system. And you know, what is this crazy world of software engineering and, how could I get involved? And then I went to college and I took CS 101 and started learning how to write C++. And my final project was to make a command line video game in C++. Cool. And yeah, it was amazing. It was like landing a spaceship, you know, pretty basic, but at the time I’d never even used a command line. Yeah. So it was so powerful for me to be able to kind of tell my computer what to do and get to understand you know, how to make it, to solve the problems that I had.
But unfortunately the director of computer science at my university was kind of a traditional gatekeeper and he kind of told me that I shouldn’t continue on past doing C++ the first class. So I switched tacks at that point. And I love to read and I love books and I’m really interested in education. So then I became an English major with kind of focus on education and linguistics, but I’ve always loved tech and found a way to come back around to it. And then I got my first job at a college, at a charter school in DC got an internship and this was at the, like the height of the recession. So I was just so excited to have a job and be working.
Lauren (04:12):
Sure. Yeah.
Stephanie (04:14):
And so this school was a, a charter school for arts and kids with special needs and it was a fantastic place to work.
Lauren (04:23):
That’s incredible.
Stephanie (04:24):
Yeah, it was so much fun to like hang out with the kindergartners and like there was murals all over the walls. And I really look back on that job as kind of my first step. And as luck would have it, they didn’t have a website and they needed a way to communicate to the parents like what the meal schedule was, what the pickup schedule was. And my coworker said, Hey, have you heard about WordPress? I was like, no. And so I google it and it says “Our famous 15 minute installation” and I was like, I can figure this out.
Lauren (04:53):
Challenge accepted!
Stephanie (04:55):
Challenge accepted. Exactly. So yeah, so that’s kind of how I got my start. And loved started poking around with the PHP and WordPress and then pretty much soon after that got into Ruby and I took a Python weekend workshop in 2012. I was really excited about Python and the Python group in LA fell apart, so that’s how I switched over to Ruby.
Lauren (05:19):
Ah, I see. Yeah. There was a need for something new. Okay. Exactly. Wow. I think you are fighting the patriarchy. I mean, you doing that, like having that negative experience in college after having loved the course and feeling so successful in it, and then to find your way back to it after the gatekeeper and someone saying, no, this isn’t the industry or space for you is so incredible and such an amazing story. So how cool that you found your way back to it.
Stephanie (05:48):
Right. I’m so excited that that’s how it worked out. Although I do wonder what would’ve happened if I had gotten a CS degree after all.
Lauren (05:55):
No, absolutely. I mean, I think that that’s an interesting thing too, that you found the opportunity though when you were at the school, right? And I’m sure there were plenty of people that recognized that there wasn’t a website or needing that tech and you were the person that stepped up to it and that says something about you and that you were really destined to find your place in this, in this industry. So you were gonna carve it out for yourself. That’s even cooler.
Stephanie (06:17):
I totally agree. Yeah, it feels inevitable.
Lauren (06:19):
So then you decided to attend General Assembly, and how did you decide to take that next path? Sounds like you were already working in the industry in a way, you know, writing the code, doing the tech of it. How did you decide that you needed to go learn JavaScript at that moment?
Stephanie (06:35):
Yeah, so at that point I had, I knew I wanted to have a Rails app and I was learning Ruby. And in about I think 2012 or 2013 I contracted with a Rails dev shop to build an app for my work. I was like, I wanna learn Rails, I’m gonna have them build in Rails so that I can level up along with the app. So they kind of shipped me an MVP and at that point I was able to kind of step in and be the Rails developer. And that’s when I took General Assembly because I wanted to do JavaScript and they ended up teaching me Angular 1, which is of no use to me now. But it was great to kind of get those fundamentals and do kind of the, the front end development Yeah. That I had been a little, a little iffy on until that point.
Lauren (07:28):
Yeah. Fill in the gaps, if you will.
Stephanie (07:29):
Exactly. Yeah. And I kind of raised my hand, hand in class and I was like, why aren’t we doing React? And they were like, don’t worry about it.
Lauren (07:35):
Oh my gosh.
Stephanie (07:36):
Yeah. So,
Lauren (07:37):
Yeah.
Stephanie (07:38):
Yeah. You know how it is.
Lauren (07:39):
Well, you find that they, it seems like they are a bit just like slower to the uptick on things and they’re just trying to keep a pulse on the industry, but also keep their curriculum.
Lauren (07:50):
They just have to constantly adjust it. So I think that that Yeah, that’s a really interesting problem that I think universally all coding programs probably are trying to make sense of it and trying to be on the cutting edge of and stink like that to dump a bunch of curriculum to walk away from it. You know? And Ada developer’s academy, where I attended, they they have adopted React, but they didn’t teach it to us when, when I was in it in 2017, so, yeah. Mm-Hmm.
Stephanie (08:17):
I think that’s exactly what it was, is there was no curriculum for it yet.
Lauren (08:21):
Right, right. But I think, I think what’s really interesting and unique about your, your path is that you found the opportunities at your job, at what you were doing to learn and to level up, as you said, and to find opportunities to learn on the job and to keep that steady employment. But like, okay, I’m gonna build a Rails app now, and I’m, I don’t quite yet know what that looks like, but I’m gonna find out. You’re gonna really need me because I’m gonna be the expert in this. It’s really cool.
Stephanie (08:49):
Right. Yeah. And it was great because after we built that MVP, we had a lot of interest from other associations wanting to get at the app because they had heard good things. And so after, you know, kind of they built the mvp, I went in and kind of delivered version two, and at that point we had started selling it to people.
Lauren (09:09):
Oh, really?
Stephanie (09:10):
We had a, yeah, we had like a licensing agreement with a couple other associations who wanted the app too. And so what I did at that point was I leveled up, and I hired a a few rails devs and a designer to come in, and so I was, it transitioned to, to an engineering manager at that point.
Lauren (09:29):
Oh my gosh.
Stephanie (09:30):
Yeah. So it was really exciting because I had my team, my development team, and then I also kind of pulled the development team from the other associations in. And so they were pushing code upstream to me, and then I was merging it into the, you know, into the main repository. And then we kind of handled the different needs that the different associations had by like localization, internationalization files. So we kind of had Canadian developers, California developers, like everybody in there together. And then I was kind of just reviewing PRs and like assigning issues and stuff like that. And I think that’s where I really hit my stride is, and that’s what I have a passion for, is like building things and managing teams.
Lauren (10:10):
Managing a distributed team, which is difficult, and learning on the job and just kind of like saying, this is what we need and I’m gonna figure out a way to make it happen for us.
Stephanie (10:18):
Exactly. So that was so much fun, and we really managed to like level up the app. My gosh, over like a short period of time. It just went, it was much, much better than it was. We put like Railss action cable in there like a month after that came out and did that in a couple places and Cool. Which is so much fun. Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren (10:36):
Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s a, it’s really fun to play around with. Wow, okay. So you’re just like manifesting your destiny of like, this, I want, this is the job I want, this is the role I wanna be achieving and this, this is the team I wanna be working on, and that’s, I’m gonna make it happen. That also is indicative of the industry in itself, right? Mm-Hmm. There’s always something new to learn. If you are curious about something, like take the time to learn it, build play, see what you can make with it.
Stephanie (11:02):
Exactly. That’s really, really cool. Yeah, I was actually on the phone with a woman this morning who is just kind of thinking about whether or not being a developer is the career for her. And the advice that I always give is like, go to meetups, like check it out, try to find your tribe, but then also, like you’re saying, get that little side project going because that can be a place where you test things out and try new skills and try a new language or a framework and then level yourself up and if, if you can’t try that at work.
Lauren (11:35):
Yeah
Stephanie (11:35):
Absolutely. And yeah, so I was able to do that like a couple years ago. When I was starting to learn how to code, I started building an app called Yonderbook and I built it with Ruby, but with a framework that I love called Roda that everyone should check out. It’s so much fun. It’s a little micro framework that’s similar to Sinatra, but I, it’s, it’s amazing. It changed my life. It’s fun.
Lauren (11:56):
Fun. Yeah.
Stephanie (11:58):
And so like, I’ve been working on Yonderbook for three or four years now and basically I was frustrated at the time because, you know, if you’re a reader like me, you might use Goodreads to pick the books that you wanna read and leave reviews and star them. Sure. all time and might use over. Yeah. You might use Overdrive over here to like download e-books from the library.
Lauren (12:20):
Oh yes. I’m active there.
Stephanie (12:23):
Yeah.
Lauren (12:24):
Great resource.
Stephanie (12:27):
So people don’t know that they can do that, by the way. People do not know that they can use that. I have to kind of educate cuz I’m like, Hey, you can get all this stuff for free from your library,
Lauren (12:34):
Audio, books, everything. Yeah. Yeah.
Stephanie (12:37):
So I built an app that takes everything, all the books you wanna read from Goodreads and checks all of them to see if they’re available to download. Because I always find that I go to the you website and I’m like, I don’t have anything good right now. Like, I don’t wanna read any of this stuff. So it’s great to just kind of do the one click all my, the books that I are my wanna read list, I’m gonna see what you’re available.
Lauren (12:59):
Yeah. I want that app. You also are doing this really great thing and living the model of writing code for what you loved, solving the problems that you face yourself and you feel like you’re a superhero when you are writing code that is solving the things that like you’re struggling with day to day. And it, it feels so neat to be able to like unlock capabilities for yourself and for friends. And I think it’s neat that you’re, you identified what you wanted and then we’re like, okay, I’m gonna learn how to do that. Absolutely. So neat fun. It’s so fun.
Stephanie (13:30):
The great thing is I started the app and like I had that frustration, but now I have 2000 users a year on Yonderbook. It’s like, who are these people? Why do they wanna use my app? But like they do, and I get requests on Twitter, people are like, Hey, can you give me the gender breakdown of the authors that I read? And so I have all these like stats and graphs in there now too.
Lauren (13:50):
Oh, that’s so fun. Okay, so listeners go check that out. I, when I was on the Kindle team at Amazon being a big reader and prior English teacher myself, I was always like, what are we reading guys? We’re really in into video games.
Stephanie (14:10):
Where I’m at now. We do. I’m, you know, I work in education. And we do like little book clubs. We have a library at the office. It’s pretty cool.
Lauren (14:24):
That’s so fun. No, and I think, I think you are doing this great thing of like, you’re mixing your passion with also your job and you’re doing, you’re in the field an industry that you really love and you’ve blended education, your background and your schooling with your passion for tech. And I mean, that’s living the dream, right? You know, I think I have a lot of friends that are developers that are writing code for either companies or are on teams that are building code that they don’t care much about. Or the app that they’re shipping isn’t something that they feel like much passion for. Right. but it’s a job and it pays well and, you know, you pay your bills and that feels good and you know, you’re learning to code too. So that is also incredible. But you’ve found this neat also third attribute to it that it’s also in a, in a space that, you know, education’s incredible and it’s important and our, our country needs it. And so it’s so cool that you’re participating in that.
Stephanie (15:18):
Yeah. I’ve been really lucky to have my interests kinda line up with my career, which has been super, super great because it’s, you know, I’m passionate about education and about engineering and I get this awesome confluence there.
Lauren (15:30):
Oh, that’s awesome to hear. Okay. Stephanie, can you tell me about a time that you felt like an outsider and how you dealt with that feeling?
Stephanie (15:38):
Absolutely. So in around 2013 or 2012, I was a participant in the Rails Girls Summer of Code Program. Yeah.
Lauren (15:48):
I love them.
Stephanie (15:49):
Yeah, it’s fantastic. And I was a summer of Code Fellow and we were sponsored by Pivotal Labs in Santa Monica. Sh shout out, we are so thankful that they had sponsored us. Very cool. And we, we were working on an app to help people to kinda learn the Ruby Standard Library. And as you probably know, one of the requirements of being a Rails girls is that you have to present at a conference at the end of the summer.. We submitted our proposal to Rocky Mountain, Ruby and I, it’s, I at the time had like dyed my hair like bright red, I wore a business skirt, and I had like a flowery, flowery shirt on, and I gave this presentation at this tech conference and literally surrounded by a sea of guys and jeans and hoodies. And I stuck out so, so much and I was like, oh my God. Like, note to self, never ever wear this.
Lauren (16:48):
Or note to self keep wearing it.
Stephanie (16:50):
I mean, I’ve stuck out so much and I think like the whole clothes at conferences thing, like we could talk about that forever.
Lauren (17:00):
Gosh.
Stephanie (17:01):
That was definitely a point of I felt so out, like so ostracized because also I didn’t know what the hell I was talking about at that time. And so I didn’t wanna stick out.
Lauren (17:15):
Right. You wanted to blend in. You were new into the industry.
Stephanie (17:17):
Sure. Yeah. And I was like, if anyone has any follow up questions about anything I’ve given, I will not be able to answer them. And then I came home and I was like, all right, I gotta wear my like datadog t-shirts and like all of this stuff next time. And then as my confidence grew, like now, like last Rubyconf, I had like ridiculous dresses on and stuff, and I think it just kind of mirrors like that initial like, oh my God, I’m so outta place.
Lauren (17:46):
This is my community and I I deserve have to be here and I belong here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Stephanie (17:51):
So that was a, that was a time where I just was very regrettable. Like, I look back, I watch that keynote and I’m like, oh my God.
Lauren (18:01):
So funny. Oh, I love it. That’s hilarious. Yeah.
Stephanie (18:04):
Oh my gosh.
Lauren (18:05):
Yeah. The conference, pre-conference prep of what I’m gonna wear is always feeling like prepping for the first day of school.
Lauren (18:13):
Yeah. That’s the thing. You wanna sh declare what your like loves are, you know, it’s an easy way for people walking in the hallways to identify you and to find commonalities with one another.
Stephanie (18:26):
And Sarah Mei talks a lot about what she wears when she presents, and I think she is pretty like intentional about, she’ll do like an a funky earrings or like a skirt and like she doesn’t shy away from that, like bring in that femininity or her her own style to the stage. But initially I was very, very worried about that and like didn’t, I definitely held back in a way that I don’t anymore. Yeah. And so I think like for women that are starting out, just like wear whatever you feel comfortable and if you wanna fit in and just not just throw your hood up, like that’s okay. Mm-Hmm. If you wanna just go in with your like flowery blouse and do that too.
Lauren (19:00):
Yeah, absolutely. No, I hear you. It’s an awkward event in itself, a technical conference. Right. It’s a room full of experts. And especially if you’re feeling new, it’s it’s a daunting thing. But I will again say how grateful I was to having met you when I was so new into the industry and you demonstrated like what mentorship and allyship looks like, and it was so incredible. You recognized that I was lost, I think, and you were willing and excited to show me around. And so I think the more we can do that for each other and as more like us continue to enjoy the industry, to continue making space and helping others when they are feeling confused or needing a leg up, I really appreciate you doing that for me.
Stephanie (19:47):
I was so excited to meet you and like find a fellow school person and like be able to talk and like talk about kids in classrooms and all of that good stuff. And I think like a definite shout out to Abby Phoenix and the whole team at the Ruby Comp Scholars program because mm-hmm. Yeah, I, you know, I was, I was a scholar in Ruby Comp 2013 I think, or 2012 in San Diego. That was my first Ruby comp and that’s actually where my, my, my boyfriend
Lauren (20:36):
Yeah. It’s such a cool, it’s such a cool program and I’m so, so impressed by what they do for sure. Mm-Hmm. Okay. Stephanie, do you’ve given some already, but do you have any advice for those that are wanting to transition into tech that you can share?
Stephanie (20:50):
Yeah. we had a Rails girls in LA a couple years ago, and I gave a presentation to them. And what I was really focused on in that presentation was the, what I called the valley of Confusion. Yeah. And so I think that, like, what I noticed when I was learning is that there is so much out there when you’re just getting started, like learn to code in 15 minutes, like that first like tutorial the first week, and then you get to a point where the resources really thin out. Yeah. And it’s not as much there, and then it gets really, really hard. Yeah. And you’re confused and there’s nothing there for you.
Lauren (21:32):
Yeah. And what to do next at that point.
Stephanie (21:34):
Exactly. And that’s, that’s the valley of confusion to me because there’s nothing out there and like, you’re gonna have to ask people for help. But they’re like, Hey, you’re not a newbie anymore. Like, I, how come you can’t figure this out? Or there’s a lot, there’s a high, the expectations are really high and a lot of times people need, that’s the value they have to cross to actually make it to be hireable. So it’s really hard. And so the advice I always give to people is that being a programmer is hard work. And it’s not that you’re stupid or not that you can’t hack it, it’s just hard. And a lot of us, like are used to coasting through school, like getting A’s, and there’s things that are easy, but this is not necessarily one of them. And so like, I think I had a lot of self worth issues. I was like, I get frustrated and I can’t figure something out. And I think, oh my God, what does it matter with me? And I have to just say like, no, this is really hard to figure it out. These are hard challenges. Yeah. Like, that’s why not a lot of people will tackle this because it’s just difficult. So it’s nothing about you. So you really have to flex that grit muscle to be a programmer and to push through that valley.
Lauren (22:40):
Yeah. That’s, that’s incredible advice. Thank you so much for sharing it. Yeah, no problem. Okay. And then last but not least, Stephanie, go ahead and make your shout out. What would you like listeners to go check out?
Stephanie (22:50):
Yeah, so definitely if you’re a rubyist, I recommend Roda as a framework. If you’re a reader, check out my app. It’s called yonderbook.com. And if you’re a newbie, check out your community and meetup.com and join all the programming groups in your area and see which one feels like a good fit for you.
Lauren (23:09):
Yeah, that’s, I, I cannot first off wait to check out Yonderbook. And secondly, I could not retweet the advice on meetups more because that was how I found Ruby. It’s how I found, I, I really like the Python group in in Seattle. It, I love going to meetups about things. I don’t know. Asking all the questions and meeting the community and meeting that group of friends that are seeing each other monthly or weekly or whatever it is. And seeing if it might be a fun community to join yourself.
Stephanie (23:40):
Absolutely. And I love going to the big conferences. I’m gonna go to Rails Comp next and actually gonna go to Ruby Kaigi in Japan in next month also. So that’ll be a lot of fun. Oh my gosh. So fun. Yeah. I’m excited. And then like, those are great, but also great are like the little local conferences. Like I went to Empex in LA and I think there was like the, I wanna say less than a hundred people attended, but it was like funky and it was this like Hungarian dance club and it’s just all of us that love Elixir in LA like getting together and people flew in for that and it’s just got a different vibe, but I just, I love the big conferences, but the little ones are funky and you get to know your neighbors and your community really well.
Lauren (24:18):
Yeah. It can be a really beautiful community. And so if you haven’t found it yet, I encourage you all to keep searching for it because it’s out there and it’s re it feels really, really, really good once you find it. And Stephanie, where can listeners find you online?
Stephanie (24:33):
Great. So I am Stephanieblack on Twitter. Stephanie Wilkinson on GitHub and StephanieAWilkinson.com.
Lauren (24:42):
Very cool. Okay, Stephanie, thank you so much again for chatting with me today.
Stephanie (24:46):
Thank you so much, Lauren. I’ll talk to you soon.
Lauren (24:50):
And that’s a wrap on another episode of We Belong Here, lessons from Unconventional Paths to Tech. Be sure to rate and subscribe anywhere you can find podcasts. And check us out next week for another story and lessons learned from an unconventional path to tech.
